Welcome back to Scare Me! a weekly horror newsletter. Today, we’re speaking with Stephanie Gagnon, the creator of one of horror’s most influential recommendation podcasts, Books in the Freezer.

Like all the best things, I found out about Books in the Freezer from Rachel Harrison’s Instagram. I can’t find the post now, but I remember what her caption said—that Books in the Freezer was an incredibly special and unique show she loved.

Of course, I had to hear it.

I chose an episode at random, and soon I was immersed in a comfortable back-and-forth as host Stephanie Gagnon and her guest traded horror recommendations. I remember being dazzled by their seemingly endless knowledge of horror books new and old. As the episode progressed, they strung together an eclectic series of recommendations that all somehow embodied the episode’s theme.

Needless to say, I was hooked, and my TBR got ten times longer.

Forgive me for showing my inner English major, but Books in the Freezer has gotten me thinking about Irish Modernism, of all things. The Modernists weren’t just telling stories like Dubliners and At Swim-Two-Birds—they were writing novels that proposed what Ireland could be, as the nation rebuilt itself after a long period of brutal colonial oppression.

In a way, every community does this, although usually not under circumstances so extreme. We need spaces where we make decisions about who we are, and what we can be. On Books in the Freezer, Stephanie curates a space where horror is as diverse and inclusive and varied as we are. Since 2017, she’s highlighted horror books in every way imaginable, surfacing themes that range from obvious to obscure and delving much, much deeper than the typical recs that once defined the genre.

And in a fun twist of fate, Stephanie and I will both be speaking on a panel about horror influencers at StokerCon this June! “Don’t Forget to Like and Subscribe” will be moderated by Emily C. Hughes on Thursday, June 3, at 3pm.

Will I see you there? Hit reply if you’ll be at Stoker!

Thanks for reading Scare Me! Our monthly Subscriber Spotlight is coming up fast. If you’ve got a project to share with our community, now’s the perfect time to send it my way.

Michelle Delgado: Hi Stephanie! I’m pulling up my list of questions…do you ever write yourself a little script when you’re recording your show? I’m always paranoid my brain is going to go blank if I don’t.

Stephanie Gagnon: And it will, because that's it's happened to me. I've learned the hard way. I have to list out the books I'm talking about, and then exactly what I want to say from each book. Maybe not word for word, but at least bullet points.

People ask me for book recommendations sometimes, and I'm like, I've literally never read a book. I don't know why you would ask me that.

But, yeah! I’ve been listening to your show for quite a while, and I thought it would be fun learn more about the origin story and how the show has evolved. You're coming up on ten years, right?

Next October, yeah.

The early episodes really do have that same DNA of the show today. The format has been so consistent, which I think is pretty unusual. Take me back to 2017—what was happening in your life at the time? How did the show start to come together?

I had been doing BookTube for a bit, which is the bookish side of YouTube. And I worked a night job where I was listening to a ton of podcasts. So of course, I listened to a lot of book and movie podcasts.

But when I listened to the book podcasts, they seemed to be dismissive of or not very well versed about horror books—you know, the same three names were getting pulled out. I just felt like, there needs to be a show for people that are looking for horror recommendations that aren't just the same three dudes. There's so much more to the genre.

I thought about it for a bit, and I reached out to my other friend who did BookTube to pitch her this idea, essentially picking a topic and recommending horror books. In 2017, it was such a different landscape. When you go to a Barnes & Noble now, there's a horror section. That wasn't the case in 2017. I remember specifically saying that if I go to a big bookstore and they have a specific horror section, I will feel like I've done good in the world.

My Barnes & Noble has a massive horror section now, but Rachel Harrison was shelved in fantasy just a few years ago when I went to pick up Such Sharp Teeth.

Do you feel like your podcast and others like it are intertwined in that journey for the genre? Because I really see that as a huge part of how we’ve arrived in our current moment.

I think so. I mean, I always feel weird tooting my own horn. But I don't know what happened in publishing for them to start taking horror seriously. It's just been such a journey seeing people go from indie or small publisher days to publishing books every year with Big Five publishers now that they're a staple of the genre.

Even in the horror podcasting world, I feel like we're all in conversation with each other. It's its own little community here, too.

I'll toot your horn if you don't want to! Books in the Freezer has 4.9 stars with 300+ ratings, which is crazy, and that's just on Apple. Clearly, what you're doing is striking a chord.

Was there a moment when you noticed more listeners joining and finding the podcast?

When I interviewed Chelsey Weber-Smith, I remember them saying there was a Skibidi Toilet episode of American Hysteria that unexpectedly went viral.

I can't really speak to a specific moment. It's just been like a slow avalanche, gaining traction.

You haven't done a Skibidi Toilet episode yet, though. Just kidding, I don't think you should do that.

I do think that's something people underestimate with creative work. It’s easy to get frustrated with plateaus, but if you stick with it after the initial excitement wears off, it really does add up over time.

It really is just putting your head down and working through it. You get the high of the new idea, and that lasts a few years, then you’ve got to find other things to keep it fresh and keep it going.

What is the most challenging part of the podcast? Has that changed as you’ve worked through different stages?

Definitely. It changed in setup from me and my co-host Rachel—she got pregnant, and she decided she would rather just focus on her YouTube channel, which is understandable because podcasts are a ton of work. Then I had another co-host, and then [I made] the switch to just me.

[For a while] finding guests for each episode [was challenging for me] as someone who is really shy and introverted. I'm sure you know what it's like, having to type the emails and hope you hear back from people. As time has gone on and I've been more integrated into this community, the reaching out part is less scary. I think now it's more the monotony of editing, or fixing sound issues.

People underestimate how long it takes to edit a one hour episode. It is multiple hours.

I definitely hear it in your show—when podcasts are done well, it feels like a conversation but better, because everything’s flowing nicely and everyone sounds brilliant.

[Some] guests are just so articulate and well-spoken. They can just go on and on about something, and everything they say sounds brilliant. [I’m] like wow, I don't have that.

Absolutely could not be me. It's been humbling listening to myself as I correct the transcripts for these interviews. I’m like, wow, I have some quirks.

That's something that I've worked on over time. I was much worse several years ago.

You have a knack for choosing unexpected themes that turn out to be abundant and rich with different horror texts. Are you just in the habit of always looking for those opportunities? I imagine it could be pretty challenging to continuously come up with new niche ways to slice the genre.

That's actually probably my favorite part. I keep a running doc, and it usually happens when I'm seeing a movie or a show—I'll start thinking in categories. Something Very Bad Is About to Happen—I was like, weddings. Wedding horror. That's got to be a thing, right? That's always a ton of fun.

I did broader themes earlier in the podcast, and I'm kind of wondering if I should go back and revisit those, because it's been so long. But I do love doing the ultra weirdly specific locations or unexpected things every now and then.

I loved your doppelgängers episode, and weirdly, I see doppelgängers everywhere now. I’ve been reading Annie Neugebauer's books, and I’m currently in the midst of Jeff VanderMeer’s Southern Reach series. I never thought about it as a category, and then suddenly it's everywhere, following me.

As a doppelgänger would do. It's funny, because I think that one was Jocelyn Codner's idea, and she told me, “This is actually something that deeply scares me.” And then I read all those books, and I was like, “Oh no, I have an existential fear now that I didn't know that I had before.”

I know you're a slasher fan—but are there any varieties of horror that hit a little too close to home? Or are you generally unfazed?

I tend to not like kid horror—and not because I'm a mom now, and it hits too close to home. I just find that [in] a lot of the stories, I'm like, “A five year old wouldn't do that. Developmentally, that’s not where they are.” I think I just nitpick it too much.

I will give most things a try. I'm not a huge extreme horror person. I'll read some if someone wants to do an episode on it. So no, I don't have any specific genres that creep me out. At least, I haven't found [them] yet.

Mine are weirdly specific. I don’t like it when people eat non-food items in horror. It’s weirdly specific, but it does come up and it really bothers me.

You know what? I am grossed out by eyes—things poking eyes, just thinking about eyeballs. Or things going under nails.

Yeah, I don't like that. That makes me uncomfortable, but I guess it's supposed to.

It's doing its job.

Do you feel like the podcast has changed your relationship to the genre in any way? I'm not really interested in being like a critic, but I do find that I'm becoming less and less critical because I'm so fond of all the people in the horror space.

I definitely agree. Luckily, the podcast was never super critical. It was always a more positive recommendation space. But yeah, I feel the same way. I talk to these people, and I read their work, and I can hear it in their voice. I see their quirks.

As far as my relationship to horror, that's a good question. It's just so overwhelming seeing all the books that are coming out every year and knowing that I can't possibly get to all of them. It was much more doable when the podcast started, where I was like, “These ten horror books are coming out. I'm gonna read them.” And now it's like, hundreds. There's gonna be stuff I missed.

I have a lot of anxiety about that.

Like, existentially?

Yes. I keep my TBR in this room I’m in, and I just look at it as I pass by every day. It like, physically pains me to not be able to read all these books immediately.

And for that reason, I don't separate my TBR. The sight of it would also immediately fill me with dread.

And it’s like you said—it's not like, “Oh, I have a to do list that I have to get through.” It's like…time is a finite resource, and I so badly want to experience all these stories.

I don't know if you're a mood reader, but sometimes things just aren't hitting—and it's not the book, it's just you at that specific time. It's tough to fit things in at the time you are ready to receive them.

This is the first year I'm reading ARCs consistently, and I think that's the biggest challenge.

Horror is an interesting space on BookTok and Bookstagram, because we tend to read books and not take them at face value.

It's kind of innate to the genre.

Exactly. But the general bookish discourse does cross over into my feed. I'm really inspired by Sadie Hartmann, as I'm sure a lot of us are, and her writing on helping the right reader find the right book. And I wondered how you think about recommendations—because unless a book or an author is actively hateful, I don't see a lot of value in telling people not to read.

Thank you. It's been an evolution. When I did BookTube, the stuff that trends there is more like, here's what I hated about this book. I did a bit of that in my early days, and it would just get flooded with, “Oh, thank you for telling me! I'm not gonna pick this up.”

I thought about it and realized that's not the outcome I want. I don't want to be someone who dissuades people from picking up a book just because I didn't like it for whatever reason. I started thinking about the people I follow who hated books that I ended up loving.

That’s not to say there's not a place for criticism, but I just didn't feel like that was my lane. What I'm hoping to do with the show is to help people find horror. For people that are in the genre and people who are curious about it. I'm not here to dissuade anyone away.

For many years, companies like Netflix, Amazon, and Spotify have tried to perfect algorithms that tell us what we like. But humans are so unpredictable. There really is something special about getting personal recommendations. Why is that so enduring and irreplaceable?

The people, they yearn for personal connection! There just is a marked difference between reading a listicle of “You liked this show, here's 10 books you might like” versus hearing someone really talk about what worked for them about the book. They might bring up a subplot or a character that isn't mentioned in a one sentence synopsis. Or an author is on the show, and they're talking about books that inspired them.

That's catnip for me. I just watched Near Dark for the first time because in the author's note in Mongrels, Stephen Graham Jones talked about that movie.

That tracks.

I love getting those little insights. Sometimes it's not a book you would connect to another book, but once you know the connection's there, you see it.

That's the fun with the show—you recommend one, and you're like, “This one is a bit of a stretch, but stay with me here.”

The carnival horror episode with Chris Panatier did that for me. There were a few recommendations in there that I was like, “Dang, that is a carnival. I think my definition of a carnival was too narrow previously.”

I love that.

Do you have any upcoming new horror releases that you're really psyched about? Or any books you’ve read recently that you want to put in people’s hands immediately?

That's a good question. I recently read Headlights by CJ Leede. It's such a ride. It was so atmospheric—I was so fully sucked into the story. And when that happens, I don't know if you do this, but I start casting people. I see the movie in my head. It was just so perfect for that.

What would your fan casting be?

Oh my god. Listen, I have been texting about this. The main character, Dan, is Kyle Gallner. And then his ex-wife, I'm gonna say Julia Garner. He has an FBI partner he's assigned to on the case—I thought he was very like, Miles Teller vibes. And then there's a park ranger, and for her, I was like, Maika Monroe.

That is a great cast. I would watch that movie.

For sure. I take my job as casting director for my mental movies very seriously.

I think Hollywood should hire you.

Sometimes I get too into it, and I start thinking, “Well, she just did a project like this. So would she take another project?” Then I'm like, it's in my head. This isn't actually a movie. I don't need to worry about that.

For upcoming books, I have Decomposition Book on my nightstand. Everyone has said it's really fun and like bonkers. I read the first page, and I was like, “Okay, I'm in. I need to know what's going on.”

And then I also have Mothersucker, which is a Korean book. It seems like a revenge story. It starts with a woman who's being murdered, and then she's on this revenge tour. I am looking forward to that.

That sounds great. I just read Molka, and I have this craving for another good-for-her revenge story.

You read The Eyes Are the Best Part, right?

It's on my TBR shelf right behind me!

It was tough for me, as an eye person. But it was so good. It was worth it.

I always ask this question, and then my list gets longer. But I love it.

I know. Books go from coming out to have come out, and then you miss them, and you're like, “Wait, no, I still have to go back and read you! Come back here!”

You're very well versed in Stephen King and horror classics. But do you have any gaps in the so-called canon? Books that you’re gonna get to someday, but also there are maybe other books you’d rather read first.

The old school cosmic horror. I could never get into Lovecraft. I've tried many times. His writing style is just not for me, and also…I don't know, is it worth it?

I have bought other short story collections that are kind of that cosmic, weird horror—like Robert Aickman stories that have been really influential for modern cosmic, weird horror. So I feel like that's a big gap in my knowledge.

When I started the show, there was so much I didn't know. If you listen back, I had never seen the Halloween movies. [But] as I went through [creating the podcast], I did watch all the Halloween movies.

We're always on a journey. You're just gonna learn so much when you're open to learning.

Before I got really into horror, I think I was afraid there would be more gatekeeping—but I really haven’t run into it. But there are certain movies that I wish I had seen when I was fourteen.

Absolutely. Had I watched Ghost World at fifteen, it would have hit a lot differently than watching it at thirty-four. I hold a lot of space for teen me. That's why I love YA—I still have a soft spot for YA teen horror.

I have not ventured into YA as much as I will at some point. I think I had a misperception that it was somehow softer or more sterilized, but some YA book premises sound genuinely terrifying.

I just read Cody Crowley's Body Count—it's very gory, Candyman-esque. There's a figure hunting people down and killing high school students on this trip.

I think the reason we think that is because we grew up in the Fear Street and Goosebumps era of YA horror, where it was a little more sterilized. We've just expanded so much of what YA horror can be. Clown in a Cornfield was huge for that—I feel like that was the book that made people go, “Oh my god. YA horror's doing stuff!”

To wrap up, I have a totally selfish question. I’m working on a podcast that’s launching this summer—do you have any wisdom to impart, or anything you wish you had known when you were getting started?

When you mess up, take a break before you start again so you have a clean cut. I think we tend to get really overwhelmed and be like, “Oh, sorry I messed that up! So-what-I-meant-to-say-was—” And there isn't a space, and it sounds awkward when you try to take all of that out.

It's a tough habit to get into, but yeah—take a solid space.

That is a great tip. Whenever I edit TikToks, I realize that I talk so much faster than I think I am. And I'm breathing at weird moments. It is ego death every time I post a video.

It's been humbling. Honestly, some bad reviews have hurt me. But they've also given me stuff to work on. Someone was like, “You have a nervous tic where you laugh after every question.” I listened back, and I'm like, “Oh my god, I do that.”

It's tough. You put yourself out there. You're opening yourself up to criticism. And you know, not all of it is good, but sometimes there's a nugget of something in there that helps you out.

After six long years, the second season of Dorohedoro is finally airing. It is my very favorite animated show and manga, and next week I’m going to rave about why I love it so much.

If you already watch anime, this is such a great one in every imaginable way. And if you begin to zone out the second anime or manga are mentioned, hear me out! This story is gory and funny and perfectly cast. It’s suffused with queerness, street fashion, and wild visuals. I love it so much.

This will be an extension of my 2021 Catapult essay about watching Dorohedoro during the pandemic, edited by the amazing Nicole Clark.

Scare Me! is a free weekly horror newsletter published every Thursday morning. It’s written by Michelle Delgado, featuring original illustrations by Sam Pugh. You can find the archive of past issues here. If you were sent this by a friend, subscribe to receive more spooky interviews, essays—and maybe even a ghost story or two.